Welcome to the Agenda Fluid Podcast.
I'm Ben.
And I'm Donovan.
And today we have a special guest,
Monsieur Samuel Lewis, Esquire.
Monsieur.
Would you prefer?
Bonjour, gentlemen.
Hey there, guys.
All right, so in this show.
Wait, somebody said I was in charge.
I was in charge earlier.
Do you want me to ask the question?
You're in charge, but do you want me to ask the question?
Well, since I don't know what you're going to ask,
you have to be the one.
You do realize or remember what this episode was about, right?
Yeah, yeah.
But I'm still not clear on how the question is phrased.
Okay.
I was going to let Sam lead off, but.
Well, since I came up with the question,
even though it's your show, Ben,
I came up with a question for you.
Is organized religion needed or a necessity
in a scientifically based society?
And we can go from there.
Okay.
That is the thesis question, if you will.
Well, the answer is no.
And fuck, that's a wrap.
Okay.
Thanks, everybody.
Good night.
Can you see why they pulled me into this?
Yeah.
It would be quite a bit one-sided if Sam wasn't here.
Although I may shock you a little bit.
Well, I don't say one-sided.
It would just be simple.
It would be like, no.
Yeah.
Lessons in church are pretty dumb.
The reasoning is just not there.
Okay.
How about this?
Something else I jotted down.
Do we need to define organized religion slash religion,
and spirituality?
Yes.
Do we need to define those concepts?
For what benefit?
If we're going to have this conversation,
especially if you're going to drag me into this,
you need to know what I'm talking about, essentially.
Like, because I have very specific things.
I don't know if you guys do,
but if I'm talking about this topic,
I define these things in my head different ways,
especially considering if someone looks up religion in the dictionary,
it's one of the few times in my life I fight against a dictionary.
Like, it will bring the belief of a deity in.
And I'm the one that goes,
no.
F-U-F-off dictionary.
This is one of the few times I'm not going to agree with you on this one.
So, I guess to give everyone context,
because I'm a guest here.
You kind of need to know why the heck they pulled this dude
into this conversation,
if you don't know.
While these two are atheists,
and I don't say that as a jab or anything,
I'm just giving context.
I am the guy in the room that is a Christian.
Now, when I say Christian,
I do not have a denomination.
I don't even call myself non-denominational,
because at this point,
that's a denomination.
So, no, I'm not even non-denominational.
I like to jokingly say,
I am a Christian without a gang.
Essentially, what I do is I look at the text,
whatever Jesus taught.
I know there's at least one person
that doesn't even believe he existed in here,
but that's not the conversation we're having today.
As Donovan looks around mysteriously.
But...
I don't know what he's talking about.
I essentially take those teachings,
and that is my faith.
Okay.
so I don't base them
on a group of people's translations
of those particular things.
I don't...
I look at my faith a lot
the way I look at my politics,
where I don't have a gang,
and I think for my own dang self,
essentially.
That isn't surprising
for some people that know who I am,
but essentially,
I've never been the one
to lean into a gang
and go,
I will be with everyone else
and pick up our pitchforks
and all go the same idea
at the same time.
Never me.
That will never be
how I follow things.
Much to my detriment sometimes
when people go,
you're not on our team,
you must be against us.
But,
eh,
I've learned to be
thick-skinned at this point
for that idea.
But essentially,
for me,
the definitions of the three,
I will try spirituality
the best I can,
but religion and faith,
do have a thing for me.
Because for further context,
I took world religion
in undergraduate.
And I know some people went,
a Christian took world religion?
Why would you care?
If I'm going to have an opinion
about this stuff,
I better dang well know
what I'm talking about.
So I took world religion.
That's exactly why.
That's the reason why
there are multiple
religious texts
in this house.
Not just the Bible,
but there,
I'm not,
hell,
we may even have a Quran,
I think.
Totally.
Those are the only two
I have here.
Well,
several versions of the Bible
and there's a Quran
up there somewhere.
Yeah.
so the reason why
I have a problem
with the definition,
the dictionary definition term
is that most of the versions
do involve
a God,
a deity,
or a higher power.
But as someone
who has literally
taken world religion class,
there are religions
that do not require
a God,
a deity,
or a higher power.
ergo,
to call religion
that would be
misdefining it
by some definitions
of things.
If you look at Buddhism,
for instance,
now,
base level Buddhism,
there are sects
of Buddhism
that took
some of the
Eastern gods
and pulled them
into Buddhism.
It's a lot
in the way,
here's the weird thing,
it's a lot
in the way
that the reason
why it's called
the Roman Catholic Church
is because they took
Roman practices
and pulled them
into Christianity.
That is why
it's called
the Roman Catholic Church.
Okay?
Just so someone
might have learned
something today.
But essentially,
it's the same
basic principle.
But to me,
knowing that
there are religions
out there
that do not
require a deity,
that's a bad
definition of religion.
So,
it is the
man-made stuff
that goes into
all the practice.
That's what
organized religion
is to me.
Okay?
faith
is your
faith
in whatever
your thing
happens to be.
It's your deity.
Whatever
they happen to be,
it happens to be
whatever.
You know,
your deity
as it were.
It is a faith
in a higher power.
Essentially.
It's one of those
definitions
where I go,
yes,
the word is in
the definition itself,
but whatever.
That's what I was
going to point out.
Can you define it
without using
the word itself?
Belief.
Belief,
yeah.
Yeah.
I think those two
are synonymous.
Having faith
or faith in
something
is also the
same as having
belief in
someone or
something.
Well,
I think
belief and
faith are
different in
that faith
doesn't
necessarily have
any
empirical
proof
behind it.
That's the
point.
It's a
belief in
the
unproven,
but
not
unproven.
Right.
And people
would expect
me to
fight that.
I'm not
going to
because I
agree with
you.
It is
unproven.
That is the
whole point
of faith.
So that's
the thing
that most
atheists go
F that.
you know,
and I get
that.
I totally
understand.
Honestly,
if you don't
go through the
stuff that I
go through and
stuff like that,
we seem
bat crap
insane to
you people.
And I get
it.
OK,
I am one of
those that
will accept
that instead
of trying to
fight you on
it.
It's like,
I know,
I know it's
supernatural.
I get it.
But it's one
of those things
where it's still
like that is my
faith.
Dang it.
And if you
if you judge
me for it,
it's one of
those things.
it's like
it to
to atheist
credit.
There's very
few of them
that I run
into that
are Richard
Dawkins about
it.
In fact,
most atheists
hate Richard
Dawkins.
Yeah,
it's like
you guys
hate Richard
Dawkins.
We hate
Westboro.
We can get
along in
this particular
situation.
It's yes.
Yes,
Ben,
we see the
God delusion
book.
Look,
the thing
about Dawkins
is when
he started
out,
he was
a pillar
of the
atheist
community.
But he's
going to
he's basically
going batshit
crazy as
well.
It's like,
you know,
never,
never meet
your idols,
never meet
your heroes
and that
kind of thing
because eventually
they're just
going to let
you down.
It's almost
if if your
brand is all
negativity
and being
a dick,
it eventually
gets to you
and drives
you insane.
Who would
have known?
Why is it
people still
watch Gordon
Ramsey then?
No,
I'm kidding.
Oh,
Gordon Ramsey's
actually a
sweetheart.
He pretends.
I know,
I know.
I was just
picking fun
because his
persona is so
brash,
you know.
And then you
see that man
on MasterChef
Junior and you
go,
oh,
it's adorable.
I have a gummy
bear.
That's all right.
In 20 years,
he'll be selling
reverse mortgages.
Lee pointed
out because
she was on
one of his
episodes of
one of his
shows because
we get a
channel called
Tastemade
and on
YouTube TV
and she
told me,
she said,
the way he
talks and
his mannerisms
in this
show,
she reminds,
he said,
she said,
he,
he reminds
her of
Matt Smith
as the
doctor.
A little
bit.
I can see
it.
I stood
there and I
watched him a
little bit and
I said,
I can see
it.
one thing
I do want
to interject
before you
continue is
I did look
up for my
own edification
and just to
share with
the audience.
Dictionary.com
defines religion,
not organized
religion,
but religion
as a set
of beliefs
concerning the
cause,
nature,
and purpose
of the
universe,
especially
when considered
as the
creation of
a superhuman
agency or
agencies usually
involving devotional
and ritual
observances,
and often
containing a
moral code
governing the
conduct of
human affairs.
That is a
better definition
than Google
gave me,
so thank you
for that.
Yeah,
then they break
it on down,
you know,
a specific
fundamental set
of beliefs
and practices
generally agreed
upon by a
number of
persons or
sex,
the body
of persons
adhering to
a particular
set of
beliefs and
practices,
i.e.
a world
council of
religions,
the life
or state
of a
monk,
nun,
et cetera,
the practice
of religious
beliefs,
ritual
observance
of faith,
et cetera,
et cetera.
So,
faith just
means confidence
or trust
in a person
or thing
that is not
based on
proof.
Right.
So that
would make
sense.
Now,
spirituality,
what does it
say?
give me a
definition
because this
one's a bit
more difficult
for me
because it's
sort of,
I don't want
to call it a
mushy middle
between the
two,
but it's
definitely not
a, to me,
devotion to
something you
can meditate
on a daily
basis on a
secular way
and get
spirituality
out of it.
Right.
Unfortunately,
the first
definition it
gives me is
the quality
or fact of
being
spiritual,
incorporeal
or immaterial
nature,
predominantly
spiritual
character
is shown
in thought
life.
So what
does it
mean to
be
spiritual?
Of,
relating to
or consisting
of spirit,
incorporeal,
or relating
to the spirit
or soul
as distinguished
from the
physical nature.
Let's see.
Closely akin
in interest,
attitude,
outlook,
of or relating
to spirits
or to
spiritualists
characterized
by or
suggesting
predominance
of the
spirit,
of or
relating
to the
mind
or
intellect.
I like
that.
So we
know what
we're talking
about when
we talk
about all
these terms
then.
Because I
don't know
if it will
give me
organized
religion,
because religion
and organized
religion are
not the same
thing.
Yeah,
it will not
give me
that.
Yeah,
I felt that
was important
because
people
coming to
this may
go,
oh,
we're
going to
get a
debate
on if
God
exists.
No,
we're
not.
Go to
another
show.
That's
not what
we're
getting
here.
Probably
the next
episode.
Yeah,
when I'm
not here
so you
guys
can talk
crap
all you
want.
No,
I think
the impetus
for the
thought,
this is
more of an
academic
exercise,
is how,
I guess,
how to
reconcile,
because the
way I look
at it,
and of course
I'll chime
in,
the way I
look at it
is if you
go back
200 years
ago,
there was
more of
a need,
need is
in air
quotes,
for people
to believe
that things
happened
by God's
will.
Let's put
it that
way.
Someone gets
injured or
someone comes
down with a
malady.
They go to
the doctor
and the
doctors of
the time
figure out,
okay,
we can
give you
cocaine
or we
can give
you all
of these
things.
Injuries
in the
battlefield
where they
literally
just doped
them up
with bottles
of whiskey
and amputated
body parts
and stuff
like that,
and then
they survived.
And people
of faith
would look
at that
and go,
well,
this had
nothing to
do with
the hands
of the
man who
did it.
This had
nothing to
do with
the doctor
who used
the cure
based on
his own
intellect
and his
own
experiences
to save
this person.
Everything
was done
by the
divine will
of God.
You fast
forward,
say,
200 years
to 2025,
and we
have all
types of
scientific
discoveries
that have
happened
since then.
we have
vaccines,
we have
antibiotics,
we're
constantly
working,
we were
up until
this year,
constantly
working on
cures for
cancer and
various things
like that.
And so
it's easy
to see
for me
200 years
ago how
people could
look at it
and go,
oh,
well,
that was
just God.
we prayed
and now
they're
healed.
Whereas in
2025,
I'm going
to make
a bold
statement
from a
point of
view as
an atheist,
we're quite
confident that's
not what
happened.
You know,
the COVID
vaccine is
what prevented
millions of
people from
dying,
from even
contracting
COVID.
So to
me,
that is
how does
one reconcile
or does it
even need to
be reconciled
that in a
modern society
because it
has been
proven that
the smarter
people get,
the more
scientific
advancements
they make,
the further
away from
religion they
get.
So how do
we reconcile
all of that?
That's kind
of where I
came up with
this.
Do we
actually need
or is it
necessary to
have religion
in 2025
when we've
got all
these scientific
discoveries
that explain
all of
these things
that used
to be
contributed
to a
god or
gods like
lightning and
thunder and
all this other
kind of stuff?
I'll let
Ben go first.
I don't want
to...
Well,
it's kind
of funny
because I
was going
to let
you.
Oh,
really?
Up to you.
I'll just
have one
thing.
When
about
370,
about 400
years ago,
the Catholic
Church said
that the
sun
revolves around
the earth.
Everything
revolves around
the earth.
And
Galileo
took a look
up there
a couple
times and
he's like,
you know,
the math
doesn't work.
He still
wasn't allowed
to say it,
but he,
for whatever
reason,
decided to
lean on
his brain
and logic
and wound
up in
exile,
but it's
widely known
now that
the church
was wrong.
It took him
a couple
hundred years
to apologize.
It was
sometime in
the 1900s.
They issued
a formal
apology,
I think.
so no,
I mean,
our way
of explaining
our
environment,
how things
came to
be,
is getting
a little
more
scientifically
clear
every year.
And we
don't need
the origination
from these
made-up stories
anymore.
But at
the same
time,
that allows
life to
lose a lot
of its
meaning and
people to
kind of
go without
purpose.
You know,
well,
shit,
if there's
no heaven,
what am I
doing?
What am I
doing here?
I think
even atheists
at times
question,
they have
that question.
Oh,
I have
every day.
What the fuck
am I doing
here?
I don't mean
this as a slight.
I assume
every atheist
has that question.
Yeah,
I woke up
again.
Fuck.
I waited
until the
last minute
to pay
the auto
insurance
policy.
I do
want to
say one
thing,
interestingly.
You guys
have grown
up in an
area in
which
religion
is...
No,
I'm not
going to be
politic about
this.
You guys
are crazier
than ours,
okay?
I'm just
going to
point it
out.
Donovan
has told
me things
that were
told to
him when
he was
a child
in the
organized
religion
that he
came in
contact
with
that I
would have
been an
atheist
too if
I had
heard half
of this
crap.
So I
did not
grow up
in any
of that.
And my
parents
kept me
away
from
those
religion
things,
specifically
telling me
these
organized
religion
things are
bad.
They're
nothing to
do with
anything.
these
are
insane.
Stay
away.
So
hilariously
the
atheist
and
the
Christian
in
the
room
kind
of
agree
with
this
a
little
bit,
which is
the
thing
that
might
surprise
people.
Because
a lot
of this
comes
from,
to come
back to
the original
question,
the only
thing,
and this
is me
being
academic,
as we
are being
academic,
so you're
going to
get my
academic
side
a little
bit.
I
don't
know if
you guys
have ever
gotten this
side of
me
before,
so away
we go.
As an
academic,
I have to
question part
of the
question,
because the
question's
premise says
one or the
other.
It says
science or
religion,
choose.
That's
essentially
what that
question says.
This isn't
me coming
at you,
but that's
me kind
of getting
the definition
of what
the question
asks.
I
posit
another
option
instead
of
one
or
the
other
both.
And this
is what
Donovan's
mind has
always been
blown with
me about.
He can't
understand me
half the
time because
of this
because he
just can't.
I don't
know how
he could
possibly
do this.
You know,
and I'm
not,
it's me
joking with
him,
obviously,
but he
knows that
this is a
thing with
me.
I get
both.
I have
science
and I
have my
faith.
Religion,
not so
much,
but I
have my
science
and I
have my
faith.
And things
like the
doctor thing,
for your
perspective,
it seems
like,
and maybe
they did
400 years
ago.
I'm not
saying they
didn't.
There were
a lot of
things that
the church
touched that
they shouldn't
have freaking
touched.
Like,
I'm not the
biggest fan of
the history of
the Catholic
Church,
but I will
not go on
that rant.
I'll just
say,
not a big
fan.
of the
things that
they did
in the
name of
my deity
that were
not even
close to
what was
supposed to
be done.
I mean,
I'm not
even a
fan of
the
Catholic
Church
today.
Yeah.
I'm more
of a
fan of,
I can
get behind
probably
Baptists
or Methodists,
but Catholicism
is just
fucking nuts.
And I
said it,
and I'll
stand behind
that.
But
essentially,
when it
comes to
this stuff,
like,
I will
thank God
if a
doctor does
a thing.
Is that
me saying
the doctor
had nothing
to do
with it?
To me,
at least
coming from
me,
I can't
speak for
other people.
Religious
people probably
show.
So I
don't,
I don't
label myself
religious and
that drives
some people
nuts.
They're like,
you believe
in God,
so you're
religious.
No,
I'm not.
Trust me,
I'm not.
But to
me,
when I
say that,
it is along
the lines
of,
in this
moment,
a skillful
person who
is freaking
amazing was
there.
Otherwise,
if this
amazing doctor
that was able
to do this
was not
there,
this person
would be
dead.
So I
thank God
the lineup
of everything,
not,
oh,
this person
had nothing
to do
with it.
It's me
saying the
circumstances
are all
correct to
make this
happen.
Yeah,
because a lot
of times it
doesn't
happen.
Yeah.
Yeah,
because I
mean,
I've heard
people try
to maybe
not hedge
their bets,
but they'll
approach it
from this
point of
view.
Thank God
for guiding
the surgeon's
hands to
do whatever
is needed
or,
you know,
those types
of sayings,
I guess.
And,
okay,
I guess
I'm okay
with that
to a
point,
but for
me,
I firmly
believe that
this was
all 100%
in the
skill set
of the
surgeon
himself,
and probably
20 years
he's been
practicing
and that
kind of
thing.
And I
get kind
of,
I think
I understand
where you're
coming from
on that
too,
is,
yeah,
you thank
God that
the doctor
was here,
everything
lined up
so that
this
exceptionally
gifted
person
was here
to save
this
individual's
life.
And I
don't think
there's
anything
wrong with
that.
Do I
personally
believe that
the stars
aligned and
there was a
predetermined
path?
No,
I don't.
But I'm
okay with
that.
Where I
start having
a problem,
where I want
to take my
science-y side
and start
shoving it
down the
non-science-y
throats of
certain
people
is the
whole
thoughts
and
prayers
nonsense.
They've
turned that
into a
let me
drag my
soapbox
and step
right on
it,
Mr.
Axis,
and let
me get
right up
on that.
Okay,
there are a
lot of
phrases that
we as a
human race,
and it is
not just
thoughts and
prayers.
There are a
lot of
phrases that
we have
taken,
so this
is me being
a grammar
nerd on
top of
it,
so you
get two
soapboxes
stacked on
top of
each
other,
that we
have
turned into
completely
useless
sayings.
If you
get someone
who actually
means thoughts
and prayers,
think about
what we
actually
believe.
Let's
academically,
logically
break this
down.
I am
thinking about
you.
I don't
have to be
thinking about
you.
I've got a
lot of
stuff going
on in my
life right
now.
I am
thinking
about
specifically
you.
I care
about
you,
if you
were actually
meaning it,
which I'm
going to
be honest,
comes from
politicians
mostly.
Politicians
have F this
up for
everybody.
Let's call
a spade
a spade.
And then
prayers.
I believe
that prayers
do something.
So this is
me legitimately
doing something.
Now,
on the other
hand,
do other
things.
And most
of the time
people will
put their
money where
their mouth
is if
they're
actually
walking
the walk
as it
were.
And they
won't just
be praying
for you.
They'll
I'm going
to be so
southern,
whatever I
say this,
but here
comes the
southern
practices.
Essentially,
we'll bring
a covered
dish over
to your
house.
We'll see
if everything's
okay.
You know,
if you're
actually
walking the
walk and
talking the
talk,
then you're
doing that.
You're not
just saying
thoughts and
prayers.
that phrase
because of
politicians
using it to
get away
with stuff
is like
it has
been rendered
useless and
it ticks
me off so
much because
I legitimately
mean it.
If you hear
it from me,
that is what
I mean.
And I
legitimately
mean it.
Not some
jackass off in
Washington that
needs to shut
the hell up
and stop
making my
God look
bad because
everything they
do,
they are
metaphorically
giving God
a black eye
and I'm
like just
wait until
you get
to find
out.
I'll be
vague with
that but
like you
get what I
mean.
Sam just
said wait
till you
get faffoed
bitches.
You
effed around
and you
will find
out.
You will
find out.
It will
be highly
unpleasant.
You are
not just
lukewarm.
You are
warmed up
water and
if you guys
know what
that means,
you know
what that
means.
it just
pisses me
off so
much.
It makes
me so
angry
whenever
they do
that because
I'm like
leave it to
the people
that actually
believe.
I have a
conspiracy
theory in
my skull
that I'm
going to
spit out.
I don't
think half
of these
politicians
actually
believe in
God.
I think
they do
it as a
constituency
plan.
They do
enough to
get elected.
Yeah,
exactly.
I can tell
you the
number
one person
that doesn't
believe in
God but
claims it
every single
day.
I don't
even have
to say
the name.
You don't
because I'm
pretty sure
you're right.
best I can
give them
is that
they're
religious
and don't
actually
follow the
teachings.
That's the
best I can
give them
and that's
not very
generous.
Which brings
it to the
religion,
right?
It's
things like
that.
All of
this
religious
stuff
is
essentially
to me
mistranslations
of things
that I
go,
what the
F did you
get that
out of
there?
Like a
mistake that
both religious
people and
atheists make
on a regular
basis that I
notice.
And again,
I'm not
shooting at
you guys,
but a thing
that I notice
on a regular
basis,
people go,
I read
the Bible.
It's got
this,
and this.
And as
they go
through this,
this,
and this,
I know
exactly what
they didn't
do.
They didn't
take the
historical context.
They didn't
take the
culture it
was written
for.
They didn't
take all
that stuff.
They just
read the
words through
a modern
lens and
went,
I understand
it.
No,
you didn't.
You did
not.
I'm sorry.
One of the
examples,
one of the
examples,
and you and
I have talked
about this,
Sam,
is the
whole types
of clothing
that you
could or
could not
wear.
Yes.
And it
had to
do with
just one
particular
region.
And not,
well,
if you,
if you were
a follower
of Christ,
then you
can't wear
this.
Because a lot
of that
comes from
the epistles.
These were
letters that
mostly Paul,
but I think
some other
people wrote
as well,
to churches
of
different
areas,
hence why
there's a
first and
second
Corinthians.
Those were
letters to
the
Corinthians,
you know,
stuff like
that.
But my
favorite one
is the,
well,
Christians
really
shouldn't
be getting
tattoos.
Like,
you absolute
moron.
Because
the whole
point,
and if you
had looked
at the
historical
context,
you would
have understood
this.
The whole
point of
that was
Christianity
of that
time period
was supposed
to be a
rebellion.
They were
not supposed
to be like
anyone else.
It wasn't
malicious,
although
sometimes it
was a
malicious
rebellion,
but in
a positive
way.
But
essentially it
was do
not make
yourself
confusable
with anyone
else in
the area
of which
they were.
You need
to stand
out.
Yeah,
exactly.
The pagans
of that
area
tatted to
the nines.
That was
part of their
spiritual
practices,
was their
tattoos and
everything.
So guess
what?
If you want
to stand
out and
not look
like the
people of
the area,
don't get
freaking
tattoos,
you idiots.
That's what
was being
said in
that letter.
And so
many
religious
people go,
oh, that
means Christians
shouldn't have
tattoos.
Like, there
was a hot
take that I
heard from
someone, and
I'll put it
in here.
the amount
of religious
people that
follow more
of Paul's
teachings than
they do
Jesus'
teachings is
ridiculous.
Oh, I
agree.
Paul was a
terrible person.
Paul is the
reason why
Catholicism is
fucked up,
in my opinion.
I don't know
about that.
Catholicism was
essentially, like I
said, they went,
oh, we got to look
better for these
people in the area,
so let's
just take
some of
their
practice.
They
compromised, is
essentially what
happened.
They
compromised when
they weren't
supposed to.
Well, I
mean, if
you, but
the thing, I
guess what I'm
getting at is,
and not to get
too deep in the
weeds, but
Catholicism is
the only
organized
Christian-based
religion that
I'm aware of
that basically
tells the
congregation that
you're
disconnected.
You are not
allowed to talk
to God.
Yes.
But you've
got to talk
to us
priests.
You've got
to get
absolution from
us and come
to confession
and all of
that, and we
are your
brokers for
God.
And that, to
me, was
just ridiculous.
And there's
no way to
explain it other
than it was an
absolute method
of control.
That was it.
Yeah, totally.
So that's the
hard-on I have
against Catholicism
and Paul.
Yeah, so I
get that.
Yeah, because
Paul was not a
good disciple of
Jesus Christ, in
my opinion.
He took it as a
way of gaining
power for himself
under the guise that
he was doing what
Jesus wanted him to
do, that kind of
thing.
So anyway.
See, I need to
look into those
historical connections.
So you've just
given me a bunch of
research I'm going
to do.
Thank you,
Atkinson, like I
needed it.
I would really
like to know
how Paul was
so convincing
that so many
people had to
rob Peter
to pay Paul.
I mean, it
seems like,
seems like a
pimp kind of
move.
Cute.
So cute.
Poor Peter.
Peter was
that broke
the show.
Yeah, sorry.
I, I, uh, I
had to make the
joke.
I mean, as the
leader of this
show.
And rightfully so,
man, that was a
good joke.
voice has not
been heard in
45 seconds or
more.
So, but I
think, I think
we're getting a
little off topic.
So I'll ask the
simpler question
here.
And it's a, it's
like, it's a
section title in,
in the book
here.
If there is no
God, why be
good?
Why not?
Like, I
don't, this,
this, here's
the thing.
A lot of
people say
that, oh,
religion is the
reason to be
good.
No, I still
expect you to
be a decent
human being.
Although I
will admit if
you are a
person of
faith, and
I hope neither
of you take
offense to what
I'm about to
say, because
this is a
hardcore
statement, but
I hold a
person of
faith at
higher standards
than I do an
atheist, because
an atheist,
they have
an atheist
has the
freedom to
make their
choices and
stuff like
that, as
do we.
I am what
I am a
choice
theorist in
my counseling
journey, so I
do believe we
have free
will.
I am one
of those, but
with that, we
are not God's
Sims, if anyone
gets that
reference, which
means God does
not click an
action and then
we robotically
follow.
We still, like,
God has plans,
but it's our
choice whether we
follow those
plans to our
detriment or not,
faith.
But it's
still there.
But, essentially,
what was I
even?
I distracted
myself.
That's horrible.
That's the
normal course of
a day for me.
Yeah, true.
But, oh,
yeah, essentially,
I will hold a
person of faith to
a higher standard
because they have
no freaking
excuse at that
point.
If they're
following the
teachings of
Jesus Christ
from the Bible,
you have no
freaking excuse.
Yeah, I would
say somebody who
touts themselves
as faith-based
or following a
higher calling,
you would expect
them to have
their own higher
standards.
Bingo, which is
why it's easy to
spot a religious
person versus a
person that's
actually walking
the walk because
they will show
it in five
seconds.
Like, the second
they're hateful,
I go, well, I
know what you
are.
Yeah, I
usually say to
myself, you
know, that's
not very
Jesus-like.
Yes, exactly.
See, even as
an atheist, I,
okay, number
one, let's get
the elephant out
of the room.
I am the one
that Sam was
referencing whenever
he said, do you
believe Jesus was
actually a person
or not?
So, anyway, let's
say for the sake
of argument that
he was, and
maybe even
is, you
know, was
depicted as
the Bible
basically says.
Problem is, none
of the books in
there were
actually written
when he was
alive, so it
doesn't matter
whether he was
that individual
or not, but
it's what he
stood for that
I'm okay with,
you know, turning
the table over
and the money
changers and all
this other kind
of stuff.
Jesus as
depicted in
the Bible
was, he
was a
renegade, he
was a
socialist, and
he was a
hippie.
Everything that
the conservative
Christians of
today, the
joke is, if he
were to show
up today and
start preaching
what he was
preaching in the
Bible, they
would crucify him
again.
Oh, yeah, he
would be
unrecognizable, but
I would smoke
weed with him.
I would, too.
And see, as
an atheist, I
can get behind
the teachings
that he put
out there, you
know, save for
the imaginary, you
know, daddy in
the sky kind of
stuff, but as
a, just being a
decent damn
human being and
doing the right
thing, I'm fine
with that.
And so, for me,
a lot of times,
there are many
atheists that are
more aligned with
the teachings of
Jesus Christ than,
quote, religious
people are.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, you, you
are not wrong
with that one, and
it annoys the
piss out of me.
Like, it's, I, I
jokingly say that
being a Christian is
a full-time PR
job because you've
got a bunch of
other jackasses out
there doing the
wrong thing, and
you have to go,
no, no, no, no,
no, no, that is
not what Jesus
taught.
This is what Jesus
taught.
They're just
jerks, you know,
and everything
because religious
trauma exists.
all of these
things, but just
because these
jerks exist, they
are doing harm in
the name of my
faith.
I am deeply
pissed off about
it, okay?
I'm just the
nice guy that
doesn't let the
anger out all the
time as opposed to
like, this is a
broiling thing inside
of me that anytime
it comes up, I,
I, I, I,
let's put it this
way.
My dad came from
Harlan, Kentucky
and I still got
Harlan blood in
me.
You can do the
math.
So, and if
anybody's ever
watched
justified, exactly.
And from what
dad's told me of
what he's heard,
it's accurate.
I actually worked
with a guy, um,
Ben, you know
him, Tim.
Which one?
Thacker.
Yeah.
I mean, I know
who he is.
He's from
Harlan.
Really?
Yes.
Plus dad actually
knew the kids and
was in the house of
the guy that that
show was based
on.
But anyway,
Oh, that's
cool.
And he was just
as wild west as
they say he is in
the show.
Has he ever met
Timothy Oliphant?
Anyway.
No.
So, uh,
to go back to
the, the question
that Ben posed
about if you
don't believe in
God, then why
be good?
Or if there's
no God, why
be good?
The problem I
have with that
question is that
it links morality
to believing in
a higher power.
And that is not
the case.
You don't have
to believe
an existential
future or a
life after this
one or anything
like that to
have morals.
Our morals, and
I will argue
this one till
I'm blue in the
face, religious
folks will a lot
of times say
morality comes
from God.
But atheists
basically just
point out that's
not true.
Morality is
just something
that we develop
as it's
inherently in
us when we're
born and then
our morality is
shaped.
by our
societal
interactions.
So by
a modern
decent society
to me
informs morality
of most
people.
And you
can see
that in
our laws,
in our
police force
and stuff
like that.
We say
it's illegal
to kill
somebody.
Well,
some would
say, well,
that's derived
from the
Ten Commandments.
No, it's
always been
from the
beginning of
mankind.
It's one of
those things
that's like,
well, I
shouldn't kill
this other
person.
And then as
we started
to codify our
laws, it
just made
sense.
Well, don't
kill this
person, you
know, so
it's morally
wrong to
kill the
individual.
And so
that's the
only problem
I think I
would have
with that
question is
the fact
that if
you don't
believe in
God or
there's no
God, then
why be
good?
Well, you're
trying to
link the
fact that
believing in
a higher
power is
the only
reason why
we have
morals.
And I
100%
reject that.
I would
never believe
that, but
a lot of
believers
assume that
since I
don't believe
in God,
I don't
have any
morals.
And that's
where the
problem is.
Yes.
And those
people,
unfortunately,
are not
very bright.
And that's
why this
episode is
being recorded
right now.
Well, to
try to tie it
back to the
science thing,
though, what
do you think,
as I stated
before, and
you can look
this up if
you want to
check me,
but as
societies
continue to
grow and
mature and
have scientific
discoveries and
breakthroughs,
they get
further and
further away
from believing
in a higher
power or
having organized
religion.
That is not
a topic for
discussion.
That is
fact.
But a
hundred years
from now,
where do you
think we'll
be?
You know,
more scientific
discoveries,
et cetera,
assuming we
don't nuke
ourselves,
let's say
that.
But in a
hundred years
years from
now, do
you think
that religion
will still
be an
important part
of people's
lives?
As a
person that
is on the
inside, I
do wonder
if this is a
correlation
versus causation
situation a
little bit,
because you
know what
else is
driving people
away from
the church?
it's their
intelligence,
yes, but
it's not
about scientific
discovery.
It's not
about the
stuff.
It's about
them realizing
this is a
bunch of
religious BS
and they
can tell
that it
is.
And I
would argue
that's more
why they're
leaving the
church than
anything to
do with
scientific
discovery,
which I
can accept
that,
which then
makes me,
you know,
I get this
is my
training as
a person
that's
becoming a
professional
counselor.
I've had
so many
scientific
studies
brought across
me and
they go,
now here's
the importance
of correlation
versus causation,
you know,
that's why my
brain immediately
goes pop
whenever it's
something like
that, right?
So that's,
as someone on
the inside,
I've seen
the numbers
and it's
definitely,
I would argue
more that the
church is failing
and the reason
the church is
failing is
because
they're,
this is going
to sound
dogmatic,
but they're
not doing
it right.
They're,
they are not
doing what
Jesus wanted
them to do
and it
shows and
honestly,
as human
beings,
why would
we put up
with it?
Yeah,
it's,
it's ridiculous.
It's,
it's a bunch
of hateful
bullcrap.
And,
and here's
the thing,
even if you
believe things
that may be
unpopular
for certain
people,
because there,
because there are
two things that
are running
around in my
brain.
one thing
is there
is a phrase
in there that
says be in
the world,
not of it,
which means you
are in the
world,
but don't let
it consume
you.
Right,
right.
And there
are a lot
of churches
that have
let the
world consume
them to
where you
have a bunch
of pastors
or preachers
or whoever
that lets you
know certain
denominations.
I may be
this out,
but that
part of
their sermon
is talk
about action
that this
politician did
or why we
need to go
vote.
No,
none of that
should be in
there.
Jesus
specifically
said let
Caesar have
his,
which I
don't think
was talking
about just
Caesar.
It's like
that is a
thing for
the rest
of politics
involving a
person of
faith.
Which is the
reason why we
have the
Johnson
Amendment,
but unfortunately
the IRS
has been
told don't
enforce it.
So now
churches have
carte blanche
to stand
there and
preachers in
the pulpit
and say
you need
to vote
for X.
Yeah.
And I,
you know,
I'm okay
with churches
existing.
Don't get me
wrong.
As a
non-believer,
I'm like,
look,
if that's
what gets
you up in
the morning
and you
want to
go do
your Sunday
deal and
what have
you,
I'm fine
with that.
You know,
you're not
hurting anybody.
You're helping
yourself.
But I
draw a
line when
they become
an arm of
the political
process.
And that
is what
they have
become,
unfortunately,
especially the
larger churches.
Yeah.
You know,
your small
little,
I don't
know,
probably one
room building
that has
maybe 50
people that
meets every
Sunday.
You probably
won't see
that in
in that
scenario.
But,
you know,
the churches
here,
you know,
north side,
probably a few
thousand in
the congregation.
I don't know
for a fact,
but it would
not surprise
me if the
preacher stood
up there and
said that you
need to vote
for so-and-so
to go against,
say,
John Ossoff,
which is a
senator that's
coming up for
re-election in
2026 here in
Georgia.
and I
have a
problem with
that.
You know,
keep your
belief in
your religion
separate from
your politics.
You know,
you as an
individual,
I'm okay if
you want to
vote for
the person
who more
aligns with
your,
let's say,
religious values,
which I
think is
not the
correct way
to make a
decision when
voting for
somebody,
because this
individual has
to govern
for everyone,
not just
followers of
Jesus or
Catholics or
Buddhists or
atheists and
all this other
kind of stuff,
because government
is non-religious.
You know,
it's,
what's the term
I'm looking for?
It starts with
an S.
Secular.
Thank you.
It's government,
our government
by design is
secular.
How always
has been.
United States
was not founded
as a Christian
nation,
and I think
we can all
agree on that.
believe what
you want,
but government
has to stay
secular.
That's why we
broke from
England.
Yeah.
True.
Because he,
you know,
the king is
like,
this is the
national religion
and this is
the way you're
going to believe,
you know?
And if you
don't,
well,
off with
your head.
So,
and then he
looked over at
someone whispering
in his ear and
went,
John Adams!
Sorry,
I had to make
the Hamilton
reference.
Anyway,
that is a
great play.
It is.
But,
anyway,
I think I've
hogged the
floor probably
enough on that,
but we've got
about 13
minutes left.
Let's stop,
stop.
Bullshit,
there's going
to be a part
two.
Oh,
there's going
to be a part
two.
Okay.
There must
be,
because I
don't think
we're close
to the end
of what
we all
want to
say.
Well,
I always
knew that
the thesis
question was
really kind
of broad
anyway,
and I knew
that it
was going
to just
give us
jumping off
points and
what have
you.
So,
I guess the
last question
I had,
though,
Sam,
did you
answer it?
Do you
believe that
religion will
still be an
important part
of people's
lives a hundred
years from
now?
See,
here's the
thing.
Yes or
no,
Sam?
I was
prepared for
this one,
though.
But it's
really that
something has
to be there,
and I'm
going to pull
from my
field whenever
I say that.
I argue that
if a person
doesn't have
religion,
sometimes they
will,
not always,
but sometimes
they'll make
something else
their religion.
I argue you
can turn
anything into
a religion.
if you are
passionate enough
about it.
I have ran
into,
and I'm not
saying either
of you have
done this,
but this is
just an example.
I have run
into several
atheists that I
happen to
know that
have turned
politics into
their religion
because they
have literally
done all of
the tenets of
a religion.
They have
heretics,
which must be
cast out.
They have all
sorts of things
and essentially
treat it just
like religion.
That's a fair
point.
plus in
my field,
there are
studies done
by mostly
atheists because
it's hard out
here for a
Christian in a
field like I'm
going into.
But I got
a few,
but most of
my class is
atheist.
And I don't
fault them for
that.
If any of you
hear this,
it's more
me going,
facts are
facts.
But because
of that,
they did
these studies
and found
that there
are psychological
benefits to
having a faith
system.
I've heard
that.
Now, you
can't prove a
negative,
obviously, so
you can't, I
can't give you
anything on the
opposite end of the
perspective, but
there are
psychological benefits
to that.
And I, like I
said, I think
that's why
sometimes people,
if they don't
have that, can
sometimes try to
fill it with
something else
because arguably
there may be a
psychological need
for something like
that.
That's possibly
why also people
have existential
crises of what
am I even here
for?
If, if you
don't have like
a bigger picture
in the mix,
then you can
think nothing
is worth
anything, right?
And then that
is depression
and stuff.
Like, it can
lead to that.
You just
described me and
Ben to a T
every day.
Depression.
Just wake up
depressed, go to
bed depressed.
Why are we
here?
It can.
I'm not saying
that if you have
that, but, but
like, it can
lead people to,
oh my God,
nothing is worth
anything.
And, and
usually that's
whatever I go,
um, you
can come to
these conclusions
even without a
deity, you
know, that's
like there, to
me, there are
things I call
universal truths
where regardless
of whether you
think they came
from a deity or
not true, you
know, it's
like we can
argue to the
cows come home
about how
certain things
are in the
universe, whether
they came from
a deity or not.
But in the, at
the end of the
day, if you
look at it, you
analyze it, you
go, not kind of
the mechanics kind
of pan out that
way.
so, you
know, it's, it's
one of those
things that I
have a middle
ground with
people on and
stuff, but, but
yeah, I, I
think it will
because honestly, I
think we need
something and, and
some of us are
okay without
something and
that's fine too.
but for some
of us, we
have a
psychological need
for it and
that's what would
make it more
important.
I just wish it
would be faith
instead of
religion, but
that's, that's
why me as a
person that
works ministry
and stuff like
that, I try to
help people stay
away from the
religion and go
more towards
the, this is the
positive stuff and
not that negative
stuff over there.
So.
Well, that's kind
of the reason why
I said as an
atheist, I can
still support the
teachings of
Jesus for the
most part.
I would love to
be able, and I've
said this before, I
would love to be
able to just wake
up one morning and
go, you know
what, I, I, I
believe in the
existence of God
and if I do
right, I'm going
to be rewarded
and blah, blah,
blah, but I
can't because I
have a disconnect.
I can't believe in
something that I
don't, that I
can't follow
something I don't
believe is true.
And there's
absolutely nothing
in my life that
has ever pointed
to the existence
of a higher
power other than
I'm the type of
person that I
believe the
universe itself is
probably sentient,
but it's so vast
that if it is, it
doesn't know who
the hell we are or
cares.
Oh, I cannot
remember the name
of that because
that's actually a
religious belief.
It is literally a
religious belief.
I can't, dang
it.
That's for part
two.
I hate that
because my notes
from that class
died in a hard
drive and it's
one of my biggest
losses.
I was fine with
losing everything
else in undergrad,
but that class,
I mourned for
those files.
I have never
mourned for
something digital in
my life like I
did those files.
But yes, there is
actually a form of
belief system that
says, oh no,
deity, but deity
has no idea
who we are nor
cares, you
know, so that's
actually a faith
system.
That's, um,
that's, God,
what's it called?
Uh, it starts
with a D.
It may not be
a D-ism is, is
what the founding
fathers believed
in.
They, if I
remember correctly,
deism is the
belief that there
is a higher power
that potentially
did have a hand
in creating all
of this, but
doesn't meddle in
the day-to-day
existence of
human beings.
It's like,
created it,
moved on.
That's the idea.
If that's, if
that's the
correct term for
it.
Deism.
According to
Chad GPT.
Yeah, because
they were, they
were deists.
That's the reason
why there's no
mention of God
in the
Constitution.
So, Ben, what
were you going to
say?
So, you talked
about a hundred
years ago, you
know, we had
belief systems that
explained how
things were.
Not two hundred
years ago.
Either way, even
a hundred years
ago.
I mean, it was
1925.
Well, true.
We knew a lot
less.
That's true.
So, a hundred
years from now, I
think religion will
be smaller, but it
will also look a lot
different.
It'll be sort of
stripped down, and
I don't know.
It'll almost be
folklore with a
little bit of
dogma.
I could see that.
I won't be here.
I mean, but
if I'm here, if
I'm here in a
hundred years,
things might
change.
I'll be 146.
Well, you could
be in the digital
sphere at that
point.
Nah.
Right as we get
close to the end of
our existence, we
can jack in and be
immortal.
Hard pass.
Yeah, I don't.
I know what
happens to hard
drives.
As Sam just
pointed out.
Yeah.
I will say from
the inside, it's
getting better, and
there's a really
dark reason as to
why it's getting
people.
The religious
people are dying.
I hate to put it
that way, but they're
dying, literally
passing away.
So are the
racists.
Yeah.
But taking over
their place.
Screw you, Ben.
taking over their
place are
people that are
more on my side
of the fence.
So instead of
them being replaced
with people that
are the same
BS, it is
slowly being a
movement where
they're realizing
and being
replaced as
the older ones
die off and the
younger ones take
over.
So who knows in
the amount of
time, a hundred
years when you two
are uploaded in
computers and you
can still observe
things, you'll go,
ah, I'll be
named and I won't
be in them because
I, I'm like Dr.
McCoy when it
comes to any
concept like that.
It gives me the
heebie-jeebies.
It's like the, the
idea of a
teleporter.
I'm just like him.
I'm like, but is
that you anymore?
It's like, look.
Yeah, that's, that's
a, that's a good
discussion.
It does remind me, and
I think I've mentioned
this before, but if
y'all ever get a
chance, it's on
Netflix.
If you ever get a
chance to watch, I
believe it's two
seasons of Pantheon.
It's an animated
series.
It is phenomenal.
And it deals, it
deals with this, uh,
this whole concept of
uploading yourself
basically into the
digital world.
And, um, yeah, it's
just, you, you got to
see it.
I, I was not
expecting it to be as
good as it was for it
to be an animated
show.
So, so do we think
we need to do a part
two on this?
Well, I don't know.
We, we, we didn't,
uh, we never
ever answered the
question.
We never came to a
consensus on, on
anything.
Can we do without
organized religion and
still live in a
peaceful, civil
society?
Oh, well, the
answer to that
question is yes.
Matter of fact, I
think the, the, the
civil society would be
more civil if we
didn't have organized
religion.
Because here's the
weird part.
I think we can get
rid of organized
religion as it is
now because there's
something better
than it could be.
So maybe a weird
way of looking at
it is as it is
now.
Yes, we can live
without it.
What it could be,
that's a completely
different matter.
So that's how I think
about it at least.
That is an
interesting perspective
coming from someone
of faith.
But I understand
where you're coming
from because what
is, what is
touted as religion
today is not
what it should be
from someone that
would consider
themselves a true
follower of Christ,
I think.
Bingo.
So look at the
atheist coming in
clutch.
But, well, we got a
minute 30.
I guess we're going to
have to.
I guess we'll, we'll
have to kind of back
up and, and research
and maybe talk about
this again.
Maybe not the next
episode, but in the
future.
Yeah, yeah, that's
true.
Give it some breathing
room.
Because I want to.
There's, there's no
answer.
I mean, you ask
seven million people,
you'll get seven
million different
answers.
Well, that's kind of
the entire idea I
think you had of this
show.
I mean, there's the
reason why you, you
came up with agenda
fluid.
We have no agenda
and we don't, we
don't profess to go,
we're going to answer
what we're talking
about, the questions we
have.
We're going to come
up with answers.
No.
Yeah.
And we're going to
bring Sam on and
prove him wrong.
If he were doing
that, I wouldn't
have agreed to
this.
That was never the
intent.
We, we, we needed
another voice from
that world, you
know?
And I mean, I
have more than
have, I have
accepted at this
point to a lot of
my friends.
I am their
friendly Christian
representative.
Like I'm totally
fine with that.
I mean, I grew, I
grew up in the
faith.
and got out as
soon as I could
because of the
idiocy that I
experienced and
I've shared with
Sam in the past.
My God.
So, yeah.
I don't know if
you, if you guys
know this, but I'm
a preacher's kid.
Yeah.
I knew it because
you told me.
Yeah.
God, preacher's
kids go through it
more than anyone
almost.
It's, oh.
I'm an exception.
Oh, really?
Yeah.
He never, he
never brought his
work home.
Okay.
That's cool.
He never preached
to you.
No, never.
Oh.
It always came
from a, a, a, a
moral perspective,
um, an empathetic
one.
Mm-hmm.
Never from a
fucking Bible
lesson.
Oh, good.
No fire and
brimstone and that
kind of crap.
You might've had one
of the good ones
then.
I think I
had the good
one.
I will tell
you, he, he, he
preached from the
time he left
high school.
He got a, um, a
bachelor's in
English, a
master's in
theology and a
doctor of divinity
and ministry.
Hot dang.
and preached
until 1998.
So that was 30
years.
Amazing.
He is now my
atheist buddy.
Really?
Yeah.
That, okay.
We're going to
have to unpack
that one a
little later.
We should have
him on the show.
Yeah.
Weird thing is my
brain has gone.
I know exactly how
that path went,
but anyway.
See, I grew, I
grew up, my
father was an
atheist.
my mom was
pseudo religious
until 1980.
And my
grandmother got
her back
involved in the
church.
And then that's
where my life went
to shit for six
years.
So, I mean,
Sunday morning
service, lunch,
evening service,
Monday Bible
study, Wednesday,
Wednesday evening
church service,
Saturday night,
church service.
This was, this
was how I, and
it wasn't just
one church.
This, this
particular outfit
had, they had
their main church
down in
Steemhatchie,
Florida, and
then they had
churches scattered
around South
Georgia.
And so, every
Sunday, you go to
a different church.
You know, it
might be the one
in Fitzgerald,
then there'd be
one in Abbeville,
then there'd be
one in a place
called Mount
Orr, and I
don't remember
where the hell
that's at, but
that was, that
was the one that
had an outhouse
as a shitter,
did not have
actual, you
know, bathrooms.
Primitive Baptist.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, it had
power, but no,
but no, uh, no
toilet access
other than going
out and freezing
your butt off.
And so, yeah,
that's what I had
to, that's what
I had to put up
with.
And, you know,
in most churches
today, you, you'll
go to church, you'll
get there, what, if
you don't do Bible,
uh, Bible school,
is it Bible school?
Sunday school.
If you don't do
Sunday school, which
normally is like from
10 o'clock to 11,
from what I remember
years ago, um, you
get there, you get
church services like
what, 11, 12,
12, 30.
People break and
go have lunch and
then go to fuck
home.
No, we would
start at 11 o'clock
and we'd still be
having church at
two because they,
because if, uh, a
lot of times you'd
have one singular
preacher, you might
have another traveling
preacher that would
come in.
So they'd both
preach and then
everybody would
stand up and, um,
Oh God, what was
the term?
They, they would,
they would talk,
but there was a
term for it, not
bear witness or
anything like
that, but they
would basically
something along
that I'm, I'm,
it's, it's
escaping me.
Testify.
Thank you.
The preacher or
preachers would
like, all right,
anybody want to
testify about what
the, the, the good
works that the Lord
has done for you?
Or do you want to
ask for prayers or
stuff like that?
And so you'd have a
church full of about
40 to 50 people.
all right, 35 of
these motherfuckers
would get up and
testify anywhere from
five minutes to 20
minutes each.
No wonder Donovan
Atkinson's an
atheist.
I don't.
like, yeah, so there
were a lot of
Sundays that, uh, I
would not get home
until four o'clock
and then the
Saturdays that I'd
have to go, church
would start about
seven o'clock.
We get home about
11.
So yeah, now you
know why I hate
church.
Excuse me while I
tape my broken
heart back up.
I joke about it, but
at the same time,
trust me, I, um, I
think about my
friends all the
time.
This is going to be
me being mushy a
little bit, but yeah,
just, just know that I
think about that all
the time.
And it's, it's not
like I don't give a
crap about you guys
just because you're
not believers.
If anything, I kind
of give a crap about
you more because of
it.
He wants to save
our souls.
I'm not making fun
of you, Sam.
I'm not.
I know.
That's your
choice.
I can't do crap.
That's, that is
legitimately the truth.
All these people that
try to gather people
and do it actively.
It's like, no, that's
not how that works.
That is true.
Except, unfortunately,
it's a very easy
decision because
there's not a lot of
steps, unlike what
certain people put
you through, but
same time, it's
still your choice.
So.
Yeah.
Except now,
unfortunately, they
have just given the
go ahead for people in
federal offices to walk
up to their colleagues
and go, have I told
you about my Lord and
Savior, Jesus Christ?
No, what's yours
like?
And if I, if, if, if,
they do that to, to
you and you don't want
to talk, you're
supposed to go, I
don't want to have this
discussion and they're
supposed to shut up.
But they have just
basically given them
the okay to walk
around and
proselytize to
everybody in their
office and get away
with it without any
legal ramifications.
So here we are.
There's a reason why I
fight.
On that note, we're
probably, uh, the
thing's been flashing
red at me at zero.
So we're probably like
10 minutes over, but
y'all want to wrap it
here and maybe
reconvene in a couple
episodes later to, uh,
sure.
Digest what we talked
about and anything else
that may have come to
mind.
yeah, let's end it
here and, uh, yeah, to
be continued.
To be continued.
All right.
Well, Sam, we always
let you plug where all
your stuff's at.
So where, where can
people find you?
Yeah.
So if you want to find
my stuff, um,
occasionally God
slips in there.
It's, it's part of my
brand.
So you'd be surprised
where it flips in.
Um, but you can find
me over at TSCN.tv for
all of my online
content.
I've been shuffling
things around there
lately.
Um, and you want to
find me on the socials,
then you can go on
Twitter slash X.
I don't care.
Have that argument to
yourselves.
Instagram, TikTok, and
Twitch at TSCN Sam.
What is it?
You call it Ben?
Zitter.
Yeah.
Zitter.
All right.
Well, I guess that's
where we're gonna, our,
our agenda has been
fluid and we have now
run out of liquid.
Oh, that sounds bad.
Let's don't go there.
Get Ben a gavel.
That's.
Yeah.
You need a gavel.
That's it.
What is he doing?
I'm looking to see if
there's a, if a
zitter.com is
registered.
Of course you are.
Oh God.
All right.
Well, I guess, I guess
we'll wrap it up here.
This has been Agenda Fluid.
We're very, very fluid in
this, is in this show.
If you haven't noticed,
Sam.
Oh yeah.
I've listened to episodes.
I know.
All right, everybody.
Take care.
We'll be back later.
Y'all have a blessed day.
Screw you, Ben.
That's one of my pet peeves.
you
I'm sorry.